OneMetal.com book INTERVIEW:
OneMetal Talks to Mark Chadbourn

Mark Chadbourn is one of those rare writers for whom simply describing his work as “fantasy” is a both an over-simplification and a gross disservice to his work. He is a modern day bard, who hides mental time-bombs deep within his books that, once read, lurk in the recesses of your subconscious before exploding into the forefront of your brain with a mental tsunami that leaves you swirling in the wake of its epiphany.

Mark Chadbourn first began writing horror-thriller fiction in the mid-nineties, but it was World’s End, the opening novel in his Age of Misrule trilogy and first novel as a writer of the fantasy genre, that first caught my eye. To say I was blown away was a understatement of epic proportions. My wife encapsulated the strength of Mark Chadbourn’s work, by commenting how Mark’s description entering Derby by train was correct on so many levels, and could only have been achieved by someone who had been there. Mark takes his research extremely seriously.

Following the success of the Age of Misrule, he followed up with the Dark Age and Kingdom of the Serpent, both of which were rooted firmly in the same universe as the Age of Misrule. This setting was not unlike our own, except for one crucial factor: the Celtic Age was returning, which saw the return of magic and the end of technology.

Most recently, Mark has been writing a series of superb historical-fantasy novels called The Swords of Albion, with his recently released The Scar-Crow Men (reviewed here) being the second in its series.

However, Mark Chadbourn is not just famous for being a gifted fantasy writer, as he is also a script-writer for the BBC, and has been making subtle hints that he could well possibly be pitching ideas for a television series of his own. All in all, it is an exciting time for Mark Chadbourn, who is currently promoting The Scar-Crow, and was gracious enough to take time out from his busy schedule to answer my questions.

OneMetal: For those unfamiliar with both you and your work, could you explain your background and the influences it has upon your work?

Mark: I grew up in Mercia in a working class family, from a long line of coal miners. As a kid, I read loads – books and comics – and became interested in movies. As I moved into my teens, I became very interested in music, playing bass in various bands, and then in politics and campaigning on various environmental issues. My general view is, if you don’t stand up and protect what you love, somebody else will be standing up to try to take it away. Sticking your head in the sand is not an option. Alongside this, I became interested in ancient history and mysticism. All these influences come together in my work. Age of Misrule and subsequent fantasy books were an amalgam of ancient Celtic mythology, mysticism, stone circles and paganism, music, philosophy, politics and psychology. I’ve always considered myself an outsider in modern society and those books were pretty much my manifesto. The two most recent books – The Sword of Albion and The Scar-Crow Men – combine my love of history and mysticism – essentially Elizabethan spies and Dr Dee’s magickal investigations.

OneMetal: Your professional career started as a Journalist after studying a degree in Economic History (yes, I read your Wikipedia page). Did you always want to be a writer, and to what extent did you want to write fantasy? At what point in your life did you realise that you could successfully write full-time: how did it feel?

Mark: I always intended to be a writer, from when I was five and scribbling out short stories. I went into journalism as a way to learn basic writing craft and to broaden my experience, the basis of any writing life. It took me into many different walks of life, odd situations and encounters with unusual people, all of which has been grist to the writing mill. I suppose I never had any real doubts that I could make a living from writing – I just always expected it to happen. When my first novel was accepted for publication, I quit my staff job with a national newspaper and divided my time between freelance journalism and fiction. That allowed me gradually to phase out the journalism as the fiction earnings increased, rather than having to make some dramatic decision to be a writer. It felt great, to be honest. I can’t stand working for other people. I need to follow my own road. So, for all the financial struggles in the early days, it felt like freedom. Writing fantasy wasn’t always the aim – I started out writing supernatural thrillers/horror. Really, like most writers, I just want to tell stories, wherever those tales might take me. It just happens to have led to fantasy, but the journey still continues and I’ve carried on moving into different areas.

OneMetal: Given the disparate elements of your work, describing your books as “fantasy” seems an over-simplification – how would you describe your work?

Mark: I don’t try to fit them in any particular genre – I let marketing people struggle with that one. My horror novels were heavily mythological/fantastic. My fantasy novels have elements of horror – and science fiction in one case. Really I just write whatever interests me. That doesn’t always make them an easy sell, but at least readers know they will be getting something that isn’t being offered elsewhere.

OneMetal: I was impressed to find that The Age of Misrule, The Dark Age, and Kingdom of the Serpent are all part of the same series: a trilogy of trilogies. Did you always intend this to be the case and if so how did you plan the nine books in advance?

Mark: For a while I’d been thinking about this massive story that sprawled over 2,500 years of human history, several great mythologies and three worlds – our world, the Celtic Otherworld, and the world after death. I just couldn’t work out the best way to tell it, with so much detail, so many characters and themes. And then I had a mad idea to stick it into 12 books, four trilogies, not linear, with strands running back and forth across volumes, across timelines, across worlds. That *was* a mad idea. So I cut it back to three trilogies! Thankfully, my editor at Gollancz at the time, Jo Fletcher, was always supportive if, possibly, slightly suspicious that I was indeed mad. I knew the end of the ninth book when I started the first and I knew generally how it was all going to unfold – that didn’t change over a decade. I planned it out in my head and kept all the reference there.

OneMetal: One of the most memorable examples of your work was the fomoire attack at the motorway service station during World’s End, where you combined the mundane blandness with insidious creepiness to excellent effect. How do you blend these two disparate elements together?

Mark: One of the themes of all my books is the point where fantasy – or what fantasy represents – collides head on with hard reality. The two opposites make each one sharper. So, it’s a matter of, the more fantastic the event, the blander the setting. The trick is really to define the reality very clearly, to ground it. Once you have that well-established, you can get away with anything because it’s so believable for the reader. I spend a lot of time travelling around to get the settings just right – to get the sights and sounds and smells and little, mundane details. I actually spent a whole day at that service station, watching people.

OneMetal: I have found your work to always display excellent characterisation. For example, Ryan Veitch – despite being a loud-mouth thug – is presented as someone genuinely cares about his friends. This is continued in The Sword of Albion and The Scar-Crow Men with Will Swyfte and his comrades – what processes did you take to develop such excellent characters?

Mark: For a start, I don’t believe there are good guys or bad guys, there are just people with flaws, some of whom attempt to overcome those flaws, some of whom don’t. Mostly, I don’t follow any process to develop characters – it’s just instinct. I’m a great observer of people and have a strong interest in psychology. Usually it’s a matter of finding the core archetypal essence that that character needs for the story and then bringing the cipher alive with an accretion of little details. I know how they will react in any given situation, what they want and what lengths they will go to achieve it. I think in life, as in fiction, the most interesting are the ones who have a collision of opposites within them.

OneMetal: On the subject of Will Swyfte, what first inspired you to write about an Elizabethan spy?

Mark: I was always interested in the Elizabethan era and had a reasonably detailed knowledge of it, so I was aware this was the time when England pretty much established its global spy network. It’s a great job for a character because it automatically propels them into the most interesting, dangerous events of the era. I originally planned to use the character in a film script, an Elizabethan James Bond, and was in discussions with the UK Film Council about it. But the more I researched it, the more I decided I wanted the scope of a few novels to do it justice.

OneMetal: Reading The Scar-Crow Men, I was struck by (as I am with all your books) the attention to detail, from the precise descriptions of buildings to the social protocols of that time. What research did you perform for this book?

Mark: I do masses of research for every book. It dates back to my time as a journalist when you really learn how vital good research is to breathing life into a story. For The Scar-Crow Men, I waded through scores of books, including primary, secondary and tertiary sources, spoke to experts, researched clothes, food, houses, furnishings, weapons, social mores, travel routes and times and…just about everything you can think of. I travelled to most of the locations in the book. You really do need to visit to get a feel for a place. You don’t know what it smells like from Wikipedia! These books have been the most research-heavy of my career. Sometimes I had to do three separate strands of research for a single sentence.

OneMetal: I am astounded at the detail and historical accuracy of the books, and with the proliferation of real people the line between fact and fiction is blurred. How did you go about blending the people, and their established histories, into fictional elements of The Scar-Crow Men?

Mark: It’s more a case of learning the established history and real world characters inside out and then looking for the spaces where you can weave a fictional story. Once you learn that skill of looking for the spaces, it’s not as hard as it might seem – you can do it as easily with EastEnders as you can with the court of Queen Elizabeth I. The trick is to immerse yourself fully in the real world to begin with – in this case, learning everything about the events of that year, the personalities of the Privy Councillors, what was happening abroad and international politics and how that affected England. Once you have all that, you can see where imaginative connective tissue will fill the gaps.

OneMetal: Did the research reveal something that caused you to change the plot?

Mark: I’ve done this long enough now to know to leave lots of space in a plot for things that surface through the research. Normally I know the beginning, the end, the major events along the way, and the characters and then I utilise the detail from research as I go along. But I tend to make sure I know enough about the history before I get into writing so there are no nasty surprises ahead.

OneMetal: You are also a script writer for the BBC drama “Doctors”, how did this come about?

Mark: I’ve always been interested in film and TV, screenwriting in general, and after doing a screenwriting course I contacted various producers. One at the BBC asked me to pitch a few ideas. He liked what I did and asked if I’d come on board at Doctors. I’ve been there nearly ten years now, writing a few episodes a year.

OneMetal: On the subject of your TV work, you have previously hinted at having pitched ideas for new shows? Can you offer any more light on this and if we will see a Mark Chadbourn series?

Mark: Doctors was a great way to learn the craft and really to earn the trust of TV producers so you can pitch your own ideas, which I now do. I’ve had several things in various stages of development – a near-future SF series about dangerous tech, a detective series, a supernatural series. It does tend to be a bit of a lottery as there are so many variables that make a show get produced, and a lot of it depends on other people. There may indeed be a series in the future – it’s a constantly evolving situation.

OneMetal: Given your TV writing credits, do you have any aspirations for movies?

Mark: Absolutely. I always intended to write movies before I got into TV. I’ve had a few offers to write one, but not the time. I’m currently working on a script which has had a lot of interest, so we shall see. And obviously there’s been a lot of interest in the books for adaptations. There are plenty of discussions currently surrounding that.

OneMetal: You have also written several Hellboy story lines and The Book of Shadows. How did you find the comic book writing process different to conventional book writing? Is The Book of Shadows still available?

Mark: Book of Shadows came out through Image three or so years ago. It was only a two-issue miniseries, a prequel to Age of Misrule, and it sold out quickly, but back issue dealers probably have some copies available. It was very much an experiment for me. Like any medium, it takes some work and application to get it right. I’d done a few comics for Caliber before that. It certainly is very different to novel writing – probably closer to TV writing, because you are constrained by space, a specific page count, and you need to say a lot with very little. You also need to collaborate very closely with the artist, which is a world away from the single-mindedness of a novel.

OneMetal: You have described yourself as a pragmatist, yet your writing has an inherently spiritual element. Would you consider this as a reflection upon your character?

Mark: I don’t see any conflict between pragmatism and more spiritual aspects or mysticism. I understand very well how the world around us works and how the people in it operate – I’m far from naive, and I couldn’t have been a journalist if I was. But many things I’ve experienced in my life tell me there’s more than what we see around us. So, yes, those are the twin poles of my character, which is probably best given voice in the fantasy/reality discussion we’ve already had.

OneMetal: Your background has had some interesting encounters – have you ever been tempted to write a biography chronicling these events?

Mark: It’s crossed my mind. I’ve had a colourful life, and I’ve never shied away from throwing myself into new experiences and sometimes dangerous places. But I haven’t been able to find the time, to be honest. If I wrote that, I wouldn’t be able to write a new novel and, for now, that’s where the excitement and inspiration lies for me. So I save all the biographical tales for when I’m invited to give talks.

OneMetal: During your talk at The Scar-Crow Men book launch, where you described the current cultural climate, it seems you are less politically focussed and more interested in human rights. Is this a fair summation?

Mark: I was always very political. I’ve been involved in campaigning, I’ve held political office, and I was asked to be a parliamentary candidate. But I’ve grown increasingly disillusioned with party politics. Most of it was designed for a twentieth century world, a time when we had two TV channels, and it’s not fit for purpose in the 21st century. There are very few people in the major political parties who I think are up to the massive challenges we’ve got coming up over the next few decades. But I am still very political – just on an issue-led basis, rather than being a cheerleader for some tribal party or other. I’m interested in people getting a fair deal in an unfair world, so human rights in essence, and environmental issues, which remain the greatest problems facing us. And I do get involved and get my hands dirty, because somebody has to. And as I said, if you don’t do it, somebody with views you despise will.

OneMetal: I never realised just how political you were, could you tell me more about the political office you held and your parliamentary candidacy? What campaigns have you been involved with?

Mark: I was always involved in environmental campaigns, through Friends of the Earth and latterly Greenpeace. Like many people, I was opposed to the Iraq War and very vocal about it. Someone said to me, it’s easy to mouth off, but a lot harder to do something. I decided to stand for election and ended up in the cabinet of my local council, dealing with a £10m budget and holding the portfolio for social justice/poverty reduction among other things. I learned a lot and helped a few people in difficulty, which was very fulfilling if massively time-consuming. The Labour Party then placed me on their list of approved parliamentary candidates before the 2005 election, after a pretty intense grilling before a panel in London. I considered it, but I’d already started becoming very cynical about politics. I still get involved in environmental campaigns and find it much more effective to be an outside voice.

OneMetal: A recent entry in your blog presented your ideal play list for an “End of the World Party” and I was impressed to see many classic bands. What influence does music have upon your life and your work?

Mark: Music has always had, and continues to have, a massive influence on me. I always listen to music when I write – and I listen to music when I don’t. I have extremely eclectic tastes – there aren’t many areas that I don’t delve into. I played bass in various bands when I was younger – Symbols of Malice, Xtinct Instinct and other such 80s-sounding groups, and then in my twenties I managed bands including briefly one top five chart act. I also ran an indie record company, Faith Records.

OneMetal: It is interesting to see that you listen to music whilst writing. Could you tell me more about that? I have spoken to others that they find the lyrics in music can be distracting to act of writing. Is this the same for you, or do you listen to purely instrumental music?

Mark: Music is meditative. The lyrics intrude for maybe five minutes and then disappear into the background, so it’s just a matter of getting over that hump. I wear earphones so the music actually insulates me against the outside world, as a kind of barrier, and I can completely immerse into the imaginative world in my head. Sometimes lyrics might intrude, like outside noises in a dream, and the tonal qualities and mood of the music too, so I carefully select depending on which kind of scene I’m writing. In the end, the music is a vital part of the writing process for me so I tend to listen to vast quantities in many different styles. Being a writer is as much about finding the sources of inspiration and creativity, and the things that help you write, as it is about putting words down.

OneMetal: Another author (okay Mark Charan-Newton) previously declared Science Fiction was dead and that Fantasy was the way forward. Do feel this is a fair assessment?

Mark: Not really. Because I think fantasy is dead too. And horror. I understand where Mark is coming from. Commercially SF has been dying for a long time, although it’s certainly thriving in terms of ideas, but as a broad genre it’s not connecting with the reading public in the way it did in the past. But there’s the crux of the matter – the past. Over the past five years every aspect of modern society has undergone change that is only accelerating. Politics, business, the media – they’re all struggling to cope with the fact that the old touchstones are no longer relevant. In our closeted corner of the world, it’s happening too. The terms SF, Fantasy and Horror are too broad-brush and are no longer a relevant way of expressing the ideas they’re meant to contain. They’re part of that two TV-channel world. Everything is breaking down into specifics, nuances, boundary-blurring. You see the same in music where ‘rock’ no longer means anything, but underneath that word are a thousand different iterations. The elements of SF, fantasy and horror will thrive – they’re just escaping the marketing people’s corral.

OneMetal: Others have commented (Raven Dane) how they avoid genre fiction in order to maintain their own voice. Is this the same for you? What do you read/watch/play to relax?

Mark: I do still read genre fiction because my own work is pretty idiosyncratic so I don’t feel other authors would intrude on it. But I read very broadly, a great deal outside of the genres, and I read a vast amount of non-fiction. I’ve recently read House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski and I’m about to read Super Sad True Love Story. I read a few comics still and watch vast amounts of movies at the cinema and on DVD, all types of genre. I used to be a very keen gamer, but I have to be careful these days because they’re a big time-suck and I don’t have the hours. Still very keen on Silent Hill and Assasins Creed.

OneMetal: Like yourself, I am a keen-gamer and agree they are a huge time-suck. What for in particular for you is the appeal behind Silent Hill and Assassin’s Creed?

Mark: Silent Hill, for me, is more effective as a fear-creator than most books and films. There’s as much thought gone into it, and layering of themes and sub-text, as there is in any novel. It’s hugely immersive and gives a very skewed view of events, which I like. A lot of games recycle things you’ve already seen in books and media, and while Silent Hill latched on to tropes, it remained hugely creative and novel. Very scary indeed, especially playing it alone with the lights off! Assassins Creed offers much of the same – an immersive historical background, lots of detailed research and a good story arc. Overall, I like cracking puzzles, which is essentially what I do in the day job. Writing a novel is solving a huge puzzle and getting all the pieces in place.

OneMetal: With a career spanning twenty years, you have of course witnessed the rise of the internet. Unlike some, you have a strong internet presence, but what effect do you feel the internet has had upon the genre?

Mark: The big power of the internet has been that it’s exposed the lie of the “mainstream of society”. There is no mainstream – that was just something defined for us by the people who held the power of communication in the 20th century. Genre was always considered fringe, but the internet has revealed the ideas and views it contains to be at the heart of the things we do. On the one hand, that’s been very empowering and it’s released a rush of creativity. On the other hand, as a massive generator of ideas, it’s taken the freshness and the excitement off many genre concepts. It’s made a lot of genre people become pretty jaded. I suppose all that means is that the creators just have to work harder. The biggest influence is the way it’s created an entire global genre community. It’s revealed to us that we have more in common with people 3,000 miles away than people just up the street.

OneMetal: What do you think the future holds both for you and the industry as a whole?

Mark: Personally, I never think about the future. I just keep coming up with ideas and hope someone buys them so hopefully I’ll get the chance to keep doing that. The industry is a different matter – it’s going through a massive period of transition – ebooks, piracy, bookstores struggling, changing tastes. It’s hard to see at the moment how it will all pan out, but the truth is, people are always going to need stories and there’s always going to be someone there to supply them.

Final word

OneMetal would like to thank Mark Chadbourn for taking the time to speak to us, and we look forward to reading more adventures of England's Greatest Spy.